Thread:RABNerd VP/@comment-43984080-20191001075131/@comment-44318740-20191105083555

Oh boy, I honestly wasn’t expecting a response. I will preface this by saying that I am sorry. However, I will also say that you missed the point in what I was trying to say.

I apologise for lashing out in my PM. As I stated before, this is covering some personal topics for me, as well as issues I am passionate about.

First and foremost, no, I swear on my mother’s future grave that I was not stalking you. I genuinely had merely been looking at various things related to Shinji and Kaworu, and stumbled upon your edits. You have quite a distinct writing style, and you really are everywhere.

I *did*, however, check your edit history. I didn’t do it trying to dig up dirt on you, though, quite the opposite. I guess part of me really wanted to understand your point of view, and to know what’s motivating you to do all this. As I went further down the rabbit hole, though, I admit I started feeling “odd”. All I can say is that I legitimately was scared of you. The way I kept on seeing you in discussions related to Kawoshin, and the way you spoke of its fans reminded me **scarily** much of an anti-shipper, someone who doesn’t just dislike a pairing, but actively takes time shitting on its existence and fans of it, even harassing them over their ships. I was in the Voltron fandom, as mentioned, and it had a shit-ton of antis, becoming infamous as one of the most toxic, disgusting, and at times, flat out evil fandoms in recent history. A link to anti-shippers in Voltron’s fandom, and everything they did, is here: huntypastellance.tumblr.com/hallofshame

Second of all, the harassment claims. I will defend myself by saying that no, I don’t, nor did I ever, think you yourself had harassed people. I *did* think, however, that you were an anti given you have insulted Kawoshin shippers as “just fujoshi”, and spent so much time dedicated to a pairing you hate so much. I know I wasn’t right in saying some of the things I did, but I do still believe your fixation to be unhealthy. I never did assume you wrote the bulk of either article, and actually knew full well you hadn’t from the history, but the fanon section in particular came off as seriously biased.

The stuff involving fan reactions **was** all you, and it did ( and still does) not actually reflect fans of Kawoshin at all. You quite casually insult them even in the “pros” section. K/S, from my experiences anyway, is loved for much more than what you stated. My time exploring various fanworks and mentally analysing the pairing itself has led me to this conclusion. Supporters, contrary to what you appear to believe, don’t generally brush off the serious issues in a love as pure and unconditional as Kaworu’s for Shinji, still acknowledging how something like that is very flawed thematically, and how unhealthy their relationship is as a result of this, much like NGE’s other pairings.

People like it because it has canon basis. Specifically, it’s well-loved for the massive amount of ship tease in-universe, as well quite a bit of from various staff members and licensed material.

In addition, it’s also is very popular for the tragic nature of it. Googling Kawoshin will bring up massive amounts of sad fanart, fanfics, amvs, playlists, etc, to the point where you have to actually look pretty damn hard for those who ship them purely happily. Star-crossed lovers, as they are canonically, are a very popular trope.

The fact that they have so many romantic moments, and the fact that from his very introduction, Kaworu appears to be the absolute perfect person for Shinji, which then makes the events that follow even more heartbreaking, intrigues many people, even those who don’t really “ship” them such as myself.

What I was actually talking about with the harassment was the owner of that Instagram account. I don’t know whether or not the person linking to them was you, but after I was browsing through Eva’s subreddits, I did stumble upon two accounts with your same opinions, writing style, links to your Evageeks article, and even exact wording. I do in fact have screenshots of the threads in question, and one of the accounts in question mentions their friend on Instagram, even linking to them and asking people to check them out.

I don’t know for sure if either Reddit account was yours, but if the one in question was, you need to know your “friend” posts many, many memes insulting Kawoshin shippers(usually on their intelligence), calls people “fags” and “retards” (homophobia AND ableism), and fully admits to flat out sending hate messages and harassment to Kawoshin shippers. As you saw in the Klanti Hall of Shame, all typical anti behavior.

I don’t want to accuse you of being anything you’re not, and I actually really, really **don’t** want you to be an anti. Even if the Reddit account *was* you, I genuinely am hoping that you aren’t aware of your friend’s anti status. I really don’t want you to think I’ve stalking you, either. I simply had been browsing through and saw someone link to the account. I saw that they got downvoted to all hell and back, and was already familiar with the anti in question. As such, I felt the need to investigate into this “ friend of an anti”s account, and eventually connected them to you.

Why I even care about this all, though, and why I felt the need to act, is the one thing you largely seemed to have missed. Let me explain; you are attempting to claim that Shinji and Kaworu’s relationship is “ambiguous”, and is no more or less valid than any other fan theory. However, I strongly disagree. The thing that Kawoshin’s article currently glosses over, and your own Evageeks article is flat out incorrect on is Kaworu’s famous “maybe I was born to meet you” line. You claim that explicitly romantic language is not used here, however, you are wrong there. Yes, “meet” *written as you claimed it to be* is not explicitly romantic, but the **show’s own scripts**, something you yourself site as a means of debunking the koui/koi error, write it with the character of “meeting someone” romantically, or to *rendezvous*. This is not some spin off or wrongly attributed quote, this is the show’s literal script. It also is worth noting that Kaworu is based off of Ryou Asuka from the Devilman franchise, much like Shinji is based off of Akira Fudo. Why is this relevant? Well without spoiling anything (although I myself have never read/watched Devilman given its hard R rating when I am a minor, yet still know its plot quite well given It Was His Sled), Ryou is very, VERY blatantly in love with Akira, and this is made clear from the very beginning. Other things worth considering are Q’s use of Tanabata symbolism in the poster, the fact that NGE2 ,although it isn’t the MOST canon source, does HEAVILY imply Kaworu to be gay in the character overviews. (I am well aware that the classified information is the only definitely canon thing in this game, but given this is in Kaworu’s *basic overview*, and how much time was spent interviewing Anno, it may be worth at least thinking about.)

I’m barely scratching the surface here, but I don’t really want to go through ALL of the evidence that Shinji and Kaworu’s relationship is intended to be viewed as romantic, rather I mainly wish to go through your means of “debunking” its canonicity.

One of your favourite arguments is the “carnal desire” quote, however I really don’t see how this disproves the pairing *at all*. The full context is that the interviewer asks if Shinji blushed because he was happy, and Anno said yes. The interviewer didn’t ask with any prompting, nor did she act disappointed at the response. It honestly seems, to me at least, that she had wanted to hear that. Just because Shinji didn’t experience any “carnal desire” does not sink the ship in any way. “Carnal desire” simply means “ desiring” to ... errr, yeah, with someone. Given Shinji’s mental state at the time, as well as the fact he happens to be crushing on a *boy*, it would make perfect sense. It’s very plausible, given his mental state, he simply had low sex drive at that particular time. He also could be heterosexual and bi/pan*romantic*, he could have been deeply closeted, or even just confused, about his own sexuality, you get the point. Shinji can still be in *romantic* love with him without necessarily wanting to have sex with him. Hell, he could have even been physically attracted to him(and given where he’s staring when he blushes in the bathhouse, the way he awkwardly averts his gaze at the sight of naked Kaworu, and the way *all* of the scripts detail his ethereal beauty and how it takes Shinji’s breath away, it’s quite likely he was) without wanting to sleep with him.

The other quote you take out of context is Sadamoto’s. All he said was their relationship in the manga wasn’t romance. However, what he was talking about is something I go into in one of my edits, as such I won’t repeat it here when it’s on TV Tropes under Armoured Closet Gay for all to see. I will add in, however, the content in the manga. Manga Kaworu is undeniably attracted to Shinji, given that Rei’s feelings for Shinji (something you acknowledge as canon) transferred to him, his persistent sexual harassment of Shinji, the way he interrogates him on the nature of love, the forcefully kissing him while he was hyperventilating (you claim it was CPR, but Sadamoto’s notes, the fact it is meant to parallel their kiss in the drafts, and Kaworu’s aforementioned aggressive interrogation, all confirm it was a forced kiss badly disguised as CPR) and Shinji admits to being attracted to him back even though he “shouldn’t like a guy like that”. The official translation uses attracted, in fact. You, however use “CPR” and “drawn” in your article. You even acknowledged this yourself at one point saying “the possible homosexual undertones, while debatable in the anime, are overt in the manga. I guess I am a bit worried that you may be using any out of context quote to shut the pairing down.

Why am I even going on about this? Why should it matter? Because *representation* matters. It matters very, VERY much to be able to look at a character and think that they are really cool, likeable, powerful,beautiful, funny, etc, and they also happen to be like you. This is my main argument, and the thing I was legitimately upset you ignored. I don’t think you are a bad person, Felipe,(provided you don’t turn out to be an anti,)and I am legitimately sorry for losing my cool, but I genuinely don’t think you understand the topic at hand. I did try to explain with L before, speaking from my own experiences, but I’m not really sure I made clear what I meant, and the real world seriousness of this. You said their relationship is “ambiguous”, it was your main point actually, as you yourself noted. I already go into why this isn’t the case above, but now I will explain why it *matters* that it isn’t. Imagine living your life never able to find anyone like you. Imagine never being able to see yourself in the characters you love. Imagine *actually* being able to for once. Imagine looking at a character and being able to safely say, for once in your life, “they’re just like me”.

This is exactly what Shinji and Kaworu did for so many people. They are two major characters, both boys, and they simply *happen* to be in love. Their relationship is certainly VERY flawed, and it is quite clear that Shinji did love Kaworu for very unhealthy reasons, but that doesn’t mean that their feelings for each other didn’t exist. It’s flawed, sure, but the problems in their relationship don’t have anything to do with them both being boys, and Kaworu’s love for Shinji is one of the main things that leads him to disobey his orders. He’s meant to be his perfect, idealised person, of course Shinji falls in love with him, and Kaworu grows to love Shinji back. He takes an interest in Shinji, one that becomes more meaningful as Shinji shows kindness to him, as loneliness is canonically Kaworu’s greatest fear. That interest becomes empathy, and that empathy becomes love. It’s pure and beautiful love, one that only a being such as Kaworu could experience, and it simply happens to be towards another boy. This is also why the Dan Kanemitsu’s translation is bad. Kaworu is meant to represent a perfect, pure, unconditional *love*. He is an angel in human form, and his love for Shinji is both godly and romantic, something I find quite interesting as in most religions, your god can serve as a friend and family member of sorts, but obviously romantic love isn’t compatible with it. I genuinely find this a really interesting idea, and one I find fits very well with what Kaworu truly is.

As such “ I like you” sounds incredibly childish. He is in love with Shinji, and this does definitely downplay that, but he also **loves** him in a way that’s too pure and beautiful to exist, something a normal human cannot experience. This is why “suki” is used. It’s romantic but not ONLY romantic. “ I like you” ruins both sides. “Like” doesn’t necessarily mean “I want the best for you”, while “Love” does. “I like you” can also mean “I think you’re KEWL”, while “love” is simply far less shallow sounding.

This also is reflected in another scene. EOE’s “the words I love you”. Funny how THAT gets translated as love, huh? The other thing about that scene is that it is ambiguous as to whether or not both Rei and Kaworu represent hope+love or if Rei= hope Kaworu=love. Either way, though, it’s a clear reference to Kaworu’s declaration of love.

Getting back to representation, though, your claims that Shinji being bi(and Kaworu gay) would be pointless is flat out incorrect. I don’t hate you, as I said, but I really feel you are misinformed. Please try and put yourself into the shoes of the actual LGBTQ+ fans who felt incredibly hurt. Shinji and Kaworu’s relationship isn’t “ambiguous”. LGBTQ+ people have been kept “ambiguous” for centuries. Potential canon representation isn’t like a typical fan theory like the ones you stated, It’s far more important than that, and I wish you could see that. It isn’t about “opinions”, the simple fact is that representation is important and we need far more of it. You claimed that it was meant to be a subversion of expectations of The Perfect Yaoi Saviour, but really? Can’t Shinji and Kaworu just happen to both be boys without their being any reason. This opinion of yours is honestly quite heteronormative given it implies their must be some “greater reason” for a character to be LGBTQ+. Yaoi and Yuri are completely irrelevant here. They are fetishised, treated as a phase, or as a joke. That **Isn’t** real representation. Studio Gainax was, from what I’ve heard, homophobic, and Shinji and Kaworu being explicit was therefore a no-no. However, given all I’ve already said, it’s clear that Anno did intend for their to be more than friendship between the pair. If he hadn’t, though, their relationship would fall straight into **queerbaiting**, the process of hinting at representation, but not ever even considering canonising it. Dan’s attempts, as well as your own, to keep things “ambiguous” falls into a phenomenon LGBTQ+ audiences have had to deal with for far, far, far too long. It saddens me that Shinji and Kaworu weren’t allowed to be explicit. Contrary to what you claim, although censorship isn’t an issue with Yaoi and Yuri, this is with their non-representation alone, much like incest anime. They are both disgusting portrayals of the subjects at hand, never actually addressing the real life consequences. The mere fact I can compare anime’s portrayal of homosexuality to its portrayal of INCEST should tell you all you need to know. There is a reason Haruka and Michiru were never allowed to kiss, why Utena and Anthy couldn’t until the film and even in 2016, Yuri and Victor had to be censored to be allowed to air at all. This is actually much like anime’s portrayal of incest, it’s always “funny” “sexy” or “kawaiiii”. When was the last time you saw an anime address actual incest?The way it fucks up one’s mind,and how truly horrific it is?

What I meant about Shinji and Kaworu’s influence is how many characters they have inspired. Aru Akise, Nagito Komaeda, Victor Nikiforov, Itsuki Koizumi, N, Clear, Joshua,Nezumi, Alpha Omega Nova, plenty of Shoujo love interests, you get the idea, are all blatantly inspired by Kaworu. His “ Expies” so to speak. They all also are either heavily implied, or outright confirmed to be attracted to other men and/or the protagonist. Not all of these are even positive representation, most are quite mixed at best, but Kawoshin is undoubtedly the most popular ship in the Japanese fanbase for a reason, and it’s acknowledged seriously even by those who don’t support it. The Western fanbase, meanwhile, is far more divided or at least was. However, I still see all over various anime sites mentions of them. Simply looking at any of the popular Anitubers will reveal that they truly aren’t debated much anymore, despite your claims. There *is* massive amounts of homophobia in Evangelion’s western fan base. That was what I meant by “divided”. There are shit-tons of grown men who refuse to accept that their precious self insert could possibly be anything other than straight. Post 3.33, however, I am seeing much less of this. Unlike the Japanese fan base in which Kaworu has always been considered a serious potential love interest, the western fans largely wouldn’t even consider it until that movie’s release. That is something Evageeks shows off, considering all of the people who see Kaworu and *Rei* as a more serious pairing. TV tropes is *somewhat* divided, but it is meant to cater to casual fans. Shinji and Kaworu are barely, if ever, debated by the casual fan base, hence why I see them in so many mult-fandom meps,amvs, and general discussions. The only people I see debating it are the most hardcore fans, homophobes and extreme Asushin shippers. No, TV tropes isn’t that divided and neither is the fandom at large. It’s mostly just casual fans and pro-shippers vs the three groups just mentioned, and the former GREATLY outnumber the latter, the latter being a vocal minority. It’s mostly just multi-anime fans vs NGE exclusive fans. This doesn’t mean any where near the number of people SUPPORT the pairing, but it simply means it’s almost never something I see debated by anyone other than hardcore fans. That is what I meant by TV tropes being divided.

No, I don’t hate you. I’m more than happy to have a genuine discussion with you, but I wish you could just understand the topics at hand. What I meant when I linked that Reddit thread was to show an example of someone hurt by this “ambiguity”. GoatJesus has an excellent video on BL and Shinji and Kaworu are mentioned in it.Storming the Ivory Tower also has a great article I previously linked to you discussing homophobia in Evangelion’s fandom, mostly the western fandom. Finally, on queerbaiting and why representation matters, I highly recommend the YouTube channel Are They Gay? , especially his video on representation in anime and the problems with queerbaiting. I planned to go into this more, by actually showing you the homophobia that plagues Evangelion’s fandom, including how r/kotakuinaction are using your article to mock “ duh fucken fujos”. The only thing I *am* somewhat concerned on is the potential you may be an anti, but if you can prove this was just overthinking on my part there’s no problem.